definitiveguide2ragdolls.myfreeforum.org :: Traditional Ragdolls

admin · The Boss

This particular forum certainly does appear to be very enjoyable and interesting. From what a lot of you have said they have also been extremely useful for explanations into some things that breeders are not too sure of concerning the Ragdoll.

Because of this we thought it may be interesting to discuss 'Traditional Ragdolls' Smile

The importance of them and what the term really means.

What do you think??

Admin

Helen · Top Raggie

Hi all

Traditional originally meant to me 'old english lines' relating to the USA original Blossom Time cats that arrived in the UK many years ago, several years back traditionalists did not accept Villaroyal Yankee Doodle Dandy as traditional as he was American, but now he is accepted and traditional seems to be anything as long as its not got red or tabby in the lines, I think we should all remember the Ragdoll is a man made breed, I think we should breed for type and temperament- NOT lines Laughing

Helen

Zoe · Aristorag

My understanding of traditional cats are the `tradional colours` ie no red or tabby in the background- until recently I thought that when people referred to tradional they meant originating from the original 12 cats imported into the uk, but it seems that the term for these cats is pure english.

I personally place no importance on pedigree's (except of course for health issues) and take the cat for what I see. If you have a healthy cat which has a fantastic temperament and excellent type, who cares whether it's ancestors were tabby or red!

This is my personal view and no offence is meant to anyone who's opinions may differ Smile

Nikky · Aristorag

Hi All
We can all go to our dictionary’s look up the word but to be honest in the Ragdoll world I have no idea, I like Helen thought they meant cat from the original 12 or the look of the cats from the original 12 ( but if you look back some were very different looking cats within the 12 )
But I believe they now include the 2nd lot of cats that came over as 'Traditional Ragdolls' now they really did have a different look, and I believe it was because of these that a club was set up to protect the older lines Chris you will have to tell this part of the story as I did not attend this meeting.
I agree with Helen I think they mean no tabby or red series within the cats pedigree, and if this is what they mean I personally don’t think the word Traditional is suitable because if we did this in the human world it would be Racialist.
But like I say I have not idea what is means now and it probably means different thing to different people but for me personally I just breed what I like the look of Laughing

Nikky

Allen · Aristorag

Traditional Confused

Ragdoll well i was one of those involved a few years ago who thought is was a good Idea

idea to set up a Club called the Traditional Ragdoll Cat Club back in 2001 I think Smile

Why! only to help preserve the original INPORTED RAGDOLL CAT LINES that seem to be disapering, But now feel completly different about using the word TRADITIONAL, I can understand using the term TRADITIONALIST, meening people/breeders that only want to breed from those first Import lines, but myself now feel after breeding Ragdolls since 1995 under the prefix of DOLLAMESE and now CHEHAM RAGDOLLS the aims are to breed LARGE, HEALTHY, LONG LIVING, RAGDOLLS and NOT forgetting the Temperament that we all love, that is only my veiw Smile

within our breeding programme we breed all the exceped colours and patterns including those from the Original inported lines.

Allen

Gail · Aristorag

As a Novice breeder, I have taken the 'Traditional' to mean the original imported cats and also to mean the traditional patterns and colours.
i.e no reds and Tabby. Wink

I have spent many hours looking at websites and pedigrees and find it all totally facinating Embarassed

( ask Damian when I start talking about pedigrees he fall asleep!) Rolling Eyes

I love the 'original' look and size.

But in saying that I adore the cream and red series and the first Ragdoll I ever met ( who stole my heart ) was a blue tabby mitted - She was one of Chris and Allens that now lives with Bev she was amazing to look at and so cheeky! Laughing

For me it is the temprement that matters most, Exclamation

people who come to my home are amazed at the size of them and their looks but mostly it is the temprement that people come to love--- the guy that recently did our tileing is in love with Toffee - and has booked one just like him......!

I think at the end of all that I just love Ragdolls! Embarassed

Helen · Top Raggie

Hi all

I have to say a few years back (I am embarassed to say) I was led to believe that Tabbies and Reds were inferior Ragdolls which I now know is totally untrue! I actually have had some of my nicest kittens from tabby lines with the most beautiful nose blazes and retrousse noses, I have also had a couple of pure english cats that have had totally wrong looks and have neutered them. I now breed for health and the look that I like. The temperament should be paramount as this is what the Ragdoll is most famous for and pet people which we predominantly sell to dont care about ancestory they just want a healthy lovable laid back cat. Laughing

Helen

Chris · Princess Pushy

Hi all

I will give my recollection of what happened! I apologise as it will be an essay as such a lot of controversy surrounds the whole issue.

It was back in March 2000 that both Allen and I were part of the group of experienced breeders including Lorna Wallace, who decided to set up a club for the 'Traditional Ragdoll' and this was officially formed in 2001.

It had been noted that the Blossom Time lines of the 12 original Ragdolls had began to die out. There were two main reasons for this;

1) The cats themselves had become old and were not actively working, or even worse had died
2) Many breeders had crossed the lines to the newer imported ones which had come in to the UK in the early 1990's and had not reproduced the old lines in previous litters.

As such it was imperative to try and preserve those lines for the future because of their historic value within the breed.

There was also another factor and that was because another Ragdoll breed club had been set up, The Any Other Colour Ragdoll Cat Society. If that club had gone on to become affiliated, ( it never did) we had to acknowledge that it may mean the changing of the Ragdoll for ever which is something that we really feared especially because of the on going problems of the Red & Tabby recognition within the breed.

I would also like it to be remembered at this point that we never ever wanted the outcross policy and would have rather had our imported Reds and Tabbies remain on the Reference Register rather than agreeing to one. It was the GCCF who intervened and forced our hands not our choice at all.

It was a difficult time at that point and to preserve those old lines was vitally important to ensure that the type and 'look' of the original Ragdolls imported in to the country was maintained and be used for the good of the breed in the future.

Over the coming months it soon became increasingly obvious that is was to be impossible to have a club for members who only bred for the 12 original cats. Not only was the gene pool too small to be really viable, there were far too few breeders who actually had those lines and it also excluded lots of cats who were in themselves beautiful examples of the breed with wonderful temperaments and ‘type’.

It was therefore decided that we needed to extend the cats from the 12 imported Blossom Time Ragdolls to include the later imported cats. Catastrophe/Lonerock, Hemlock Trails, Villa Royal etc etc. This opened up the gene pool considerably and enabled lots more breeders to participate in the breeding programmes. It was decided that any Ragdoll which had 12 out of 16 Ragdolls in the last line of a 4 generation pedigree would be referred to as ‘English Related’. Only cats whose pedigrees carried 16 names descended form the 12 original cats were referred to as ‘Old English’ or ‘Traditional’.

This is where the Traditional Ragdoll Cat Club, which never did become affiliated to the GCCF because of the impossible task of trying to be everything to everybody (!) and today’s Traditionalist Cat Society differ in their aims and objectives.

To those who formed the Traditional Ragdoll Cat Club, the aims were to preserve the old lines, to reproduce the cats with the old Blossom Time pedigrees and to use those cats in the breeding of the whole of the Ragdoll breed regardless of whether or not they be Blue, Seal, Chocolate, Lilac, Red 0r Tabby. Any line that needed a little of that older ‘look’ or was thought to have benefited from the historic old lines, we thought should be able to have had them added to their pedigree.

We therefore actually had, and still have, Tabby and Red series cats whose pedigrees were English Related because 12 out of 16 cats on a 4th generation pedigree were made up of the old Blossom Time descendants.

NEVER at any time was it felt that any other lineage was inferior or that ‘Traditional’ cats were elite or superior in ANY way. Only that it would have been awful to lose descendants from those lines without putting them back wherever possible.

It was always felt that actually 3/4 ‘Traditional’ is way better for health than 100% ‘Traditional’!!

I have heard it said that the blame for the differing ‘look’ and temperament of the Ragdoll nowadays is blamed solely on the Reds and Tabbies and those of us who promoted them back in the mid 1990’s.

This is absolute nonsense!

The ‘look’ of the Ragdoll in the UK changed when the Catastrophe Cats and Hemlock Trails Cats came in the second wave of imports in 1990 – 1993.

The cats who came in were HUGE boned, had huge pale coats, were far cobbier and had pale eye colour!! I always remember Brian Rigler of DreamCats saying to us at a seminar back in 1994 and I quote…’ if you want big cats with wonderful coats then buy one from us, if you want a cat with good eye colour, you will need to go somewhere else for one…’!!! It made us smile at the time and everyone wanted one of these beautiful Catastrophe cats.

The temperament of one particular Catastrophe cat is well known in the history of the breed to have had a foul nature and was avoided at all costs when it was discovered that she was passing that down the line to her offspring.

The Hemlock Trails prefix introduced Ragdolls with far boxier muzzles that the original Blossom Time cats and were far heavier in the chin which gave them a much harder ‘look’. There were others from Villa Royal who were far ‘snipier’ that ours here in the UK. This is the reason that those original Blossom Time cats were important because they put back the sweeter look that the newer imports had lost.

Some of the Reds and Tabbies had the same problems and this was the whole reason why they too needed the introduction of those older lines.

What has to be remembered at all costs is that the Ragdoll is recognised in the UK in all the colours and patterns. There is space for everyone and whilst I adore the old lines, and we have them ourselves, they NEED to continue to be mixed in with other lines to ensure that they benefit the Ragdoll Breed in the future.

What I cannot abide, as I feel it is an insult to those who own, breed and adore their Ragdolls, are people who refer to the Reds and Tabbies as ‘not true Ragdolls’

Even more so, I think the person who had a sticker in their car which stated…’If It’s not Traditional, it’s NOT a Ragdoll…’ should hang their head in shame. Trying to actually buy aRagdoll with a ‘Traditional’ pedigree nowadays is almost impossible especially from a few ( not all) of the people who claim that they want to promote them. They don’t sell for breeding and if they do many have unworkable restrictions which will not allow any breeding to anything other than another ‘Traditional’ Ragdoll!!! This just makes no sense at all for the future of the breed.

I have just added this paragraph from our web site to sum what I feel is important to us all as breeders.

'.....Perhaps we should all be concentrating on the ‘type’ of the Ragdoll and the breed as a whole and a little less at what is written on a pedigree which, for most pet owners, will be looked at for a while and then put in a drawer and forgotten about!! The fact of the matter is, most ‘pet’ owners want the RAGDOLL TEMPERAMENT and, unfortunately, most kittens haven’t read their pedigree to see if they are allowed to have one!!......'

My own personal views everyone and ones I hope do not offend as it surely is not my intent:) Smile

Chris

Just thought I would add this photo of Ann Baker demonstrating one of her 'Ragdolls' along with the line that she always said, It not the coat colour or pattern which make up a Ragdoll, it is the DISPOSITION"!!!!

I believe that this particular cat appears to be a RED TABBY Laughing

Carol · Aristorag

Hi Chris
Thankyou for the information. I love reading these posts and learning from them.
Hope you are feeling better soon.
Take care
Carol X

Juliegodfrey · Newbie

Hi everyone,
I am a new breeder of Red series Ragdolls. I my opinion my Ragdolls are the epiiphany of what all those English breeders were striving for when they first introduced the Red series into their breeding programme. I thank them emphatically as my tortie queen Ragdoll has no interbreeding or doubling up of names in her five generation pedigree what so ever. She produces healthy big bautiful soft and gentle kittens in all colours including of course the reds and the creams all in the same litter with lovely markings. Surely, this is what we are all striving for at the end of the day.
It would be very naive of us to think that England is the only Country to have had "Original American Ragdolls" and, just because we didn't have Reds or Tabbies in our first import doesn't mean they never existed. For me I find it hard to believe that the Red and Tabbie series appeared over night to England in the 1990's being the result of a few out crosses and Bingo "Reds and Tabbies" -- No, to me, it is clear that they are the result of many years of hard work from dedicated American breeders who took on the task of breeding these little darlings in all colours and probably reds also, almost certainly, I imagin at the same time as we had our BIG 12 - from America....
Seeing Ann Baker with what looks like a Red Tabby to me also, makes me feel that maybe I amm right and that their were always Reds and Tabbies But, these little beauties were kept only for America, after all, nobody gives all his trump card away at once, do they?
These are my views and that's what I think, unless of course you know different ---- I would love to hear from you.
Julie Godfrey

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