definitiveguide2ragdolls.myfreeforum.org :: Chocolate/Lilac debate

admin · The Boss

We have made the decision to continue the debate on the Chocolate /Lilac issue on this thread rather than clogging up the announcement forum.

We would like our members to air their views openly but without malice or causing offence. We all have to remember that everyone has the right to their opinion and no one individual's views are necessarily the right ones!

Once again we would like to reiterate the following:

At no time on this forum has it ever been suggested that the Chocolate gene should NOT be reintroduced into the breed in the UK.

At no time on this forum has there ever been any suggestion that outcrossing is not acceptable especially in other countries.

At no time on this forum has criticism been aimed at those breeders who want to pursue outcrossing for the Chocolate gene abroad or in the UK.

We would also like to make it quite clear that the statement written was to inform breeders in the UK who register their kittens with the GCCF, that if at any time in the future problems do arise with breeds that are not included in the Ragdoll Registration Policy, they had at least been pre warned.

If at any point breeders want breeds, other than the ones presently accepted, included in the breeding of the Ragdoll in the UK, then we suggest they contact their breed clubs BAC representatives who will then discuss the possibility of such inclusion with their members and ultimately at BAC level.

Many Thanks. We look forward to a informative and interesting debate.
Admin Team

Chris · Princess Pushy

I received the email along with almost every other breeder of Ragdolls in the UK concerning the Lilac imports.

I can only say that I'm deeply upset and hurt, once again by the rumours that once again are bouncing around concerning us personally.

Can I make it quite clear that Allen and myself are no longer BAC delegates for TBRCC. We are no longer a part of The British Ragdoll Cat Club and regretfully, will have no further input into the future of breed within the GCCF.

I can confirm to you all though that the GCCF computer only has the capability to go back 5 generations and as much as we wanted to go back at least 10 generations, unfortunately the office technology would not allow it!!!

When I WAS on the BAC, Mrs Beeson did assure me that she would take care to refer any person who imported a Ragdoll into the UK, to the
Ragdoll registration policy and assured me that it is ultimately those people whose responsibility it is to import only Ragdolls which adhere to that policy if they wish to register the cat and it's offspring with the GCCF. If this has not been the case, then so be it. The Ragdoll BAC really do need to clarify the situation.

Most TBRCC breeders never wanted outcrossing in any way which is well documented but, because the GCCF had become involved it was decided that certain breed numbers would be accepted (retrospectively) for the introduction of the Red & Tabby series and for a period of just two years from the initial outcross for the reintroduction of the Chocolate gene.

I would also like to make this quite clear, I personally have no problems with anyone who want to breed Chocolate /Lilac Ragdolls in the UK. I wish those breeders the best of luck as it is hard work and takes a lot of time and effort especially as the gene is recessive and the amount of cats needed to maintain a healthy and diverse gene pool can be huge.

Thankyou for taking the time to read this

Chris

Kiwimagic · Guest

While I agree that your post said "may contain", I can say with absoulte certainty that no Kiwimagic bred kittens have ever been outcrossed. It appears it is only some people/organisations in the UK that have a problem. Certainly the worldwide judges do not have issues, or they would have not awarded a world championship to a Kiwimagic bred Lilac Ragdoll.

Helen · Top Raggie

Hi Margaret

I still feel you are missing the point of this topic, no one is saying anything detremental about your breeding programme or lines, we just have to be more careful in the UK because of Registration policy with Ragdoll offspring. Earlier on in the year a cat had gone un noticed with Burmese in the background and it caused a lot of heartache especially among the novice breeders who had unknowingly brought from these lines and found that their cat/kittens would never be registered as Ragdolls, therefore with the information given to us more recently we felt it fair to make people aware so they can do their own checks before buying

When the UK did the Ragdoll outcross programme to get the lilacs and chocolates into the breed, that were lost many years ago we were limited to the cats that could be used which is obviously different to the rest of the world, a few years ago I was in a lot of contact with Gerda Stapel, she had the most beautiful cats in lilacs and chocolates, and had spent many years perfecting her outcross programme with great results, I would have imported back then but because the Birman was used I knew it would be no use for me in the UK, because it had already been decided that Birman outcross could not be used because of the difference in the White spotting Gene.

Helen

Nikky · Aristorag

Hi Margret
First of all I would like to welcome you Laughing

I have read your post several times and I am not quite sure of what you mean

Are you saying there are no outcrosses in the cats pedigrees at all or that no outcrosses have been done while under your prefix

Nikky

lesley · Raggie Cat

As you probably know I am not a breeder of Ragdolls merely a pet owner so I have no axe to grind on this particular debate.

I quite agree that there are different standards in the United Kingdom compared to other bodies dealing with cat pedigrees in other countries and accept that those outcrosses which may have been done several generations ago in those other countries are perfectly legitimate under the standards in place in those countries.

However the rules governing the acceptable outcrosses available for the Ragdoll in this country apply to those people who wish to be GCCF registered breeders in the UK and so anyone whom this affects should be aware of what are permissable outcrosses and which are not under UK guidelines.

I am quite sure if any breeder in this country bought in good faith a cat which could be classed as a legitimate Ragdoll in its country of origin would be totally devastated if it turned out that the same cat could not be registered as a Ragdoll in the UK because of an outcross perhaps several generations back.

This is why those bodies concerning themselves with the Ragdoll cat in this country recommend that any breeder who is thinking of importing such a cat should obtain at least a certified 10 generation pedigree and further back if possible to ensure that no problems with registration arise in breeding cats at a later date.

I sincerely hope that what should be an informative thread continues in that vein -there has certainly been no offence intended to any party involved in breeding these cats and I for one wish them the best of luck.

Lesley

Susan · Guest

I would just like to add my comments on this 'debate'.

I am struggling to see the debate clearly here. If people so wish to import cats into this country, it should be of their own will, however, they should be doing it very carefully and should be checking pedigrees throughly (if they are a competent breeder they would do this anyway). If the GCCF know what can be registered and what cant be, why cant this be left in the hands of themselves? If people want to import a cat ands choose not to have it registered with the GCCF, but with another body - why should this be an issue too? After all there are breeders in this country intending to import and breed with the ragamuffin, and yet they cant be registered in this country, so why is this not a debate in the same sense? I feel the dagger seems to be thrown at some breeders, but not at others. We cant have double standards in an issue like this - its just not on.

Why cant GCCF matters be left to the GCCF and BAC delegates?

Just my opinion.

Helen · Top Raggie

Hi Susan

Like I said in my previous post a lot of people were affected by a cat with Burmese in the background and we just dont want to see this happen again for people that want to register under GCCF, surely thats a good thing? I know I would be grateful of any information that may affect me. Of course the original information given could be wrong we were merely making people aware of the 'possible' implications should they be true.

With regards to the RagaMuffin they are being brought in under no pretence that they are recognised breed in the UK, ( as are all new breeds brought in ) this is being done by a small group and doing so will hopefully also protect the Ragdoll, they will be registered under ACFA and all being well recognised in the UK later on, this is the point trying to be made about the lilacs in other countries being accepted regardless of what outcrosses were used, just as the RagaMuffin is a fully recognised breed in the USA but not yet in the UK

Helen

lesley · Raggie Cat

In reply to Susan there is already a breeder up in Scotland who has imported and bred from Ragamuffins (and very sweet they look too!) who sells them all as pets.

In my opinion the problems only arise when cats are sold purporting to be a certain breed when the GCCF would not recognise those cats as belonging to that breed because of an outcross further back in that cat's pedigree.

As long as anyone buying a breeding cat investigates thoroughly the pedigree of the cat they are buying (as I am sure any reputable breeder would) then this should not be a problem.

Lesley

Helen · Top Raggie

Hi Lesley

I agree 100% and like you say Jean has imported bred and sold Ragamuffin kittens in the UK. All future RagaMuffin kittens that are bred from newly imported cats will also be sold as pets for two years under strict breeding guidelines of ACFA and RAG

Helen