definitiveguide2ragdolls.myfreeforum.org :: Chocolate/Lilac debate

SempreRagdolls · Baby Raggie

I stand corrected, I didnt realise the birman gene carried that way, I dont have birman in my cats anyway
does anyone do a test for the white spotting gene?

I would just like to ask is the concern the blood lines being mixed in or the type?

Allen · Aristorag

Drouindolls · Baby Raggie

Have to agree that Birman would be a disaster, BUT nevertheless there are at least 2 Breeders in Victoria with APPROVED Programmes .... makes you wonder WHAT the Cat Councils were thinking doesn't it.

scratch

bigzmum · Just Begun

Hi all
I'm new on hear so guess i will get totally slated or will at least be corrected if what i'm saying is not right Smile

I thought there were breeders in the UK with all old English ( lines from the first few ragdoll brought over to the UK ) who are breeding Lilac and Chocolate ragdolls ??

I know when i went with my sister many years ago ( when i was about 12 ) to look at ragdolls the breeder had lilac's then Smile

They had lovely pale coats with a pink tinge to the points much more warm looking than the blue kitten that were in the other litter .
However my sister stuck to her guns and went for a lovely Cream point , bet she wishes she went for the lilacs now lol

Since Having looked at many pictures and also seen cats at shows in other sections who are lilac i can say 100% that these cats were lilac .

Dose anyone else know of any breeders who have such cat ?

Bigzmum

Chris · Princess Pushy

Chocolate and Lilac Ragdolls were apparently imported into the UK along with the Seal and the Blue. Owing to the recessive nature of the chocolate gene, it is very easy to lose and it appears that this is certainly what has happened over the years.

I have been breeding for 16 years now and have never seen what I would call a 'True' Chocolate or Lilac Ragdoll. I have a breeder friend who has mated every possible line together that originally came into the country with Chocolate and Lilac in the background in a bid to produce this elusive colour. This has never been achieved successfully.

I agree that there are certainly some strange variations of colour produced in the Ragdoll and many kittens who have had very suspicious colouring. Unfortunately most of these kittens/cats have been Bi Colours. The Bi Colour has so much varying amount of white and with their nose leather and paw pads alway pink, it is almost impossible to make a correct assessment!!

Line breeding would have had to have been done and with the limited gene pool as it was in the early days I would have thought that we would have seen more Chocolate series Ragdolls than we have done if there had been 'true' chocolate and lilac in the Blossom Time cats which were imported. The way I understand it from those who were around in the very early days, some of the cats that came in registered as such were very probably wrongly registered!!

Of course we do have Chocolate and Lilac Ragdolls in the UK as we speak, but these have Balinese in their backgrounds and, as such, do not adhere to the GCCF Ragdoll Registration policy.

With the GCCF recoginised outcross programme being done at this time by a few breeders, I am sure Chocolate and Lilac Ragdolls will become more available in years to come.

Just out of interest, you say your sister and yourself visited a breeder 'many years ago' and she then decided to buy a Cream point. How long ago was this and can you let us know who the breeder was? It may shed some light on what you saw!!!

Chris

bigzmum · Just Begun

Hiya

Oh right i see the said kitten was a colour point the breeder also had an adult bi colour male who i was told was the son of Blossomtime Bananas by his owner .
The cattery was Petil-Lu hope that helps bounce

It was a quite a few years ago that we went i'm now 20 so still quite young and fresh looking lol

Chris · Princess Pushy

Just an interesting point I thought maybe interesting on this topic.

We are now in possession of the book, 'IRCA and the Ragdoll Documentary' written ( and I am happy to say) signed in 1979 by Ann Baker in which she writes the following:

Lilacs- Ragdoll Experimental Line: Test Information

Fugianna (Original) x Woo Wong ( Son) = Thumper - (over bred) All good and bad from background of the cats will show up here.

Thumper x Ming Toi = Thumper Jnr - ( Lilac beautiful cat.) Only Male has kink tail throws badly kinked tails, sterile males and cats with short lives.

Thumper x Tiki = Pecos Bill - ( Very light cats and short lives.Tans, grays, spotteds and Albinos. Results proved children of Thumper could not be used for studs.

Thumper was Albino, tan and gray spots, sore looking eyes and a growth in each corner of his mouth and so immune to pain that he was operated on without anestetic. One can produce good disposition half breed cats from these.... but deformaties a few generations down the line..... the experiment was to prove or to see just what bad points in the cats background were and just what the limitations were in the breeding........

This is why we say that we cannot make other colours.... especially Lilac. Only Seal point and line breed and forget it.... in time a few lilac females we have will throw a lilac kitten.

No Lilac pairs were sold and bred and all Lilacs were altered ( both Male and Female).......

Interesting to read!! The book will be able to be looked at at the Supreme.

Chris

thirzajane · Baby Raggie

I imagine all Ann's writings are 'interesting reads' at the very least. santa

What do you think happened there? Did she run into some sort of recessive gene that wouldn't tolerate the inbreeding?

Chris · Princess Pushy

I think your guess is as good as mine and perhaps she did not sell cats 'for stud' from him. After breeding sensibly down the lines problems may have been 'bred out', No one can really be sure can they?

I, personally have been told by an old IRCA breeder that some of the deformaties in the early Ragdolls were awful, as you would expect from the amount of inbreeding that was done.

Although Ann was eccentric and obviously slightly bonkers, I do believe that SHE believed what she said and sometimes wonder if a little bu** s*** baffled the brains!!! She wasn't completely mad and probably knew a lot more than we would like to think she did or give her credit for!!
Chris

thirzajane · Baby Raggie